Are Lutherans Next? Lutherans Seek Full Communion with Catholic Church


The New World Religion is being formed quicker than deemed possible.  This article is a true eye-opener to the record-speed merge. The author says it’s the Holy Spirit that is drawing Protestants into the Catholic Church. Is it the Holy Spirit or the spirit of the antichrist that will deceive even the elect?  Once the Lutheran Church merges with the Catholic Church many more will quickly follow.

The desire to recover the unity of all Christians is a gift of Christ and a call of the Holy Spirit

Pope Benedict XVI’s first Papal message: ‘With full awareness, therefore, at the beginning of his ministry in the Church of Rome which Peter bathed in his blood, Peter’s current Successor takes on as his primary task the duty to work tirelessly to rebuild the full and visible unity of all Christ’s followers. This is his ambition, his impelling duty.’

Priestly Ordination

Priestly Ordination

CHESAPEAKE, VA (Catholic Online) -  On Tuesday, Peter Kemmether,  a married 62 year old father of four children was ordained to the Holy Priesthood by Bishop Gerhard Ludwig Müller.  Fr. Peter was granted a dispensation from the canonical discipline of celibacy attached to priestly ordination. He had been a Protestant Pastor who came into the full communion of the Catholic Church as the fruit of a sincere search for the fullness of the Christian faith. On June 6, 2010, I read a story in the Philadelphia Enquirer entitled “The Priest and his Mrs.” concerning now Fr. Philip Johnson, a Lutheran Pastor for 19 years, who followed a similar path. He was ordained for the Diocese of Camden with the same exception, under the sponsorship and invitation of Bishop Joseph Galante.

Catholics are becoming aware of the former Anglican and Episcopal ministers who have followed the same journey home. Fewer Catholics are aware of the marvelous welcome the Church has extended to many more through the historic apostolic constitution approved by Pope Benedict XI. I have written extensively about this and recently shared my joy with our readers at the ordination of lifelong friend and pro-life hero Fr. Paul Schenck, whose ordination I had the privilege of attending last month. You can read my account here.

I am in a dialogue with Archbishop Irl A. Gladfelter, CSP, the Metropolitan Archbishop of the  Anglo-Lutheran Catholic Church, a group of Lutherans who have embraced the Catholic Catechism and the teaching of the Magisterium. They are humbly knocking at the door of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith seeking a way into full communion. You can read about this amazing group here. I am working on a fuller story of their journey. Some have said that their smallness and placement on “the fringes” of the Lutheran community makes them less representative. I recall that those were the same comments made about the “Traditional Anglican Communion” in their early efforts. They became the prophetic vehicle the Holy Spirit used to open up an historic breakthrough.

To be Catholic is to enter into the prayer of Jesus for the Unity of His Church. In Pope Benedict XVI’s first Papal message he signaled his  commitment to this unity: “Nourished and sustained by the Eucharist, Catholics cannot but feel encouraged to strive for the full unity for which Christ expressed so ardent a hope in the Upper Room. The Successor of Peter knows that he must make himself especially responsible for his Divine Master’s supreme aspiration. Indeed, he is entrusted with the task of strengthening his brethren (cf. Lk 22: 32). With full awareness, therefore, at the beginning of his ministry in the Church of Rome which Peter bathed in his blood, Peter’s current Successor takes on as his primary task the duty to work tirelessly to rebuild the full and visible unity of all Christ’s followers. This is his ambition, his impelling duty.”

He has placed the commitment to the full communion of the Church at the forefront of his Papacy. This is evident in his love, respect and repeated overtures toward our Orthodox brethren, whom we recognize as a Church and whose priesthood and Sacraments we also recognize. However, this love is also evident in his outreach to the separated Christians of the Reformation communities of the West. On the 4th anniversary of the death of his predecessor, John Paul II, Pope Benedict reminded us of John Paul’s passionate commitment to the full communion of the Church. That teaching is summarized in the Encyclical Letter “May they be One” (Ut Unum Sint).

The teaching of the Church is rooted in an ecclesiology of communion. John Paul II wrote: “It happens for example that, in the spirit of the Sermon on the Mount, Christians of one confession no longer consider other Christians as enemies or strangers but see them as brothers and sisters. Again, the very expression “separated brethren” tends to be replaced today by expressions which more readily evoke the deep communion linked to the baptismal character which the Spirit fosters in spite of historical and canonical divisions. Today we speak of “other Christians”, “others who have received Baptism”, and “Christians of other Communities”. The Directory for the Application of Principles and Norms on Ecumenism refers to the Communities to which these Christians belong as “Churches and Ecclesial Communities that are not in full communion with the Catholic Church. The

broadening of vocabulary is indicative of a significant change in attitudes” There is an increased awareness that we all belong to Christ.”(#42)

John Paul also wrote: “Relations between Christians are not aimed merely at mutual knowledge, common prayer and dialog. They presuppose and from now on call for every possible form of practical cooperation at all levels: pastoral, cultural and social, as well as that of witnessing to the Gospel message. Cooperation among all Christians vividly expresses that bond which already unites them, and it sets in clearer relief the features of Christ the Servant”. This cooperation based on our common faith is not only filled with fraternal communion, but is a manifestation of Christ himself. Moreover, ecumenical cooperation is a true school of ecumenism, a dynamic road to unity. Unity of action leads to the full unity of faith: “Through such cooperation, all believers in Christ are able to learn easily how they can understand each other better and esteem each other more, and how the road to the unity of Christians may be made smooth. In the eyes of the world, cooperation among Christians becomes a form of common Christian witness and a means of evangelization which benefits all involved.” (#40)

I embrace the Catholic claim that the fullness of truth is found within the Catholic Church and carry a burden to see the prayer of Jesus recorded in St. John, Chapter 17, answered. There is a connection. Into a world that is fractured, divided, wounded, filled with “sides” and “camps” at enmity with one another, the Church is called to proclaim, by both word and deed, the unifying love of a living God. The heart of the “Gospel” is the message that in and through Jesus Christ, authentic unity with God – and through Him, in the Spirit, with one another- is not only possible but is the plan of God for the entire human race. The Church is the way. It was not the Lord’s plan that she be divided. It is His Plan that she be restored to full communion.

Let us take our lead from the clear teaching of the Catechism of the Catholic Church. These paragraphs are in the section entitled “Wounds to Unity”:

” In fact, “in this one and only Church of God from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as damnable. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church – for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame.” The ruptures that wound the unity of Christ’s Body – here we must distinguish heresy, apostasy, and schism – do not occur without human sin: Where there are sins, there are also divisions, schisms, heresies, and disputes. Where there is virtue, however, there also are harmony and unity, from which arise the one heart and one soul of all believers.

“However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church.”

“Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth” are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: “the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements.” Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him, and are in themselves calls to “Catholic unity.”

“Christ bestowed unity on his Church from the beginning. This unity, we believe, subsists in the Catholic Church as something she can never lose, and we hope that it will continue to increase until the end of time.” Christ always gives his Church the gift of unity, but the Church must always pray and work to maintain, reinforce, and perfect the unity that Christ wills for her. This is why Jesus himself prayed at the hour of his Passion, and does not cease praying to his Father, for the unity of his disciples: “That they may all be one. As you, Father, are in me and I am in you, may they also be one in us, . . . so that the world may know that you have sent me.” The desire to recover the unity of all Christians is a gift of Christ and a call of the Holy Spirit.”

Are Lutherans Next? We shall see. However, the Holy Spirit is clearly at work.We should welcome these wonderful stories as they increase and pray for the plan of the Lord for the full communion of all Christians to unfold.

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93 Responses

  1. Religious differences can’t stop dialogue, pope tells Australians

    “”The road of ecumenism ultimately points toward a common celebration of the Eucharist, which Christ entrusted to his Apostles as the sacrament of the church’s unity,” he said.””

    http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0803733.htm

  2. I saw that. Mike Gendron think the Eucharist is the image that people will be forced to worship. I can’t help think this may be true.

  3. And from this post :

    “In Pope Benedict XVI’s first Papal message he signaled his commitment to this unity: “Nourished and sustained by the Eucharist, Catholics cannot but feel encouraged to strive for the full unity for which Christ expressed so ardent a hope in the Upper Room”

  4. I believe it is the image of the beast Sue. Brought to life though lying signs and wonders…

  5. I was thinking about what a lying sign and wonder could be…and this would definitely be one of them. To claim you have the power to bring the Son of God down from His throne and stick Him in a wafer for human consumption. Now that’s nothing but a lie.

  6. notice how it doesn’t even matter what religion you are, just as long as it’s under the the celebration of the eucharist.

  7. Yup. Also note how the world kingdom is being taken by flattery.

  8. I think the shroud is another lying sign and wonder.

    • I do too..it just makes total sense that the Romish Whore would have her own version of Jesus people can flock to, dead of course.

  9. Kit,
    check this out. When i saw this i felt nauseous, and felt like i was going to throw up. I used to believe these ‘miracles’ were amazing. i am repulsed by this

    • That is just horrible. It’s giving me a headache and I’m all queasy too Sue. Ugh..

  10. good point about the flattery. So true! I never thought that much about the shroud, but you’re probably right.

  11. With the shroud…yeah, I believe it’s real and I believe there’s something supernatural to it…but I don’t believe it’s the Son of God on that shroud. I’m watching this eucharist thing now and I don’t like it one bit. It’s just so evil.

    Is it burning up? Are they cremating their host? What’s happening in those monstrances Sue?

  12. It ‘s said to be a miracle and that the flesh is alive. It is worshiped in the monstrance in a church. They claim it is a miracle. The flesh pulsates like a heart and moves all around the monstrance BY ITSELF. No one is manipulating it. People say is proves Christ’s body is the eucharist itself. There are many more like this.

  13. Whoah! That is evil. Holy Moly Sue. You saw so many weird things. So is this just common run of the mill stuff in the church?

  14. I mean, does this always happen or just sometimes?

  15. Alls I know is that what you have shown me today REALLY gives new meaning to giving life to the image of the beast. Holy Moly. Complete with a heartbeat!!!

  16. No way is this common. The regular catholic sees none of this. These are rare “miracles”. I’ll dig up some more and send them your way. People will pilgrimage to these special places, but it is not an every day occurence.

  17. Dear Sue.

    I agree with the two of you, so there is not much to debate. But. The image of the beast, has to do with economic ‘s. And it will be worshiped. Like a currency note….

    Soon there will be no more currency notes. Only a number on a microchip…

    p.s. I like to see you on nugget news. I will also link your blog.

    Blessings.

    • Hey Ivarfjeld,

      Thanks for the comment. I also wondered about the economics/microchip. How will people worship a microchip? But I do agree with you currency notes are on the way out. Thanks for linking me. Blessings to you and have a great day.

  18. Dear Sue.

    People are crazy….

    Daniel 3:18
    But even if he does not, we want you to know, O king, that we will not serve your gods or worship the image of gold you have set up.”

    If you cant buy and sell without it, and are forced to implement it…
    Worship in to make something King. Something you cant live without…God or Money….

  19. Obama and Warren have both talked about the 3 legged stool.

    Government, Church, Business.

    working together

    Dominionist’s want to take over the world, literally.
    And they are connected to Warren.

    You know Rome would love to resume world domination.

    maybe this hodge-podge will bring about a Catholic/State church that is in unity with the other ‘christ followers’ /separated brethren, who will be part of the Catholic/state simply by their spiritual allegiance to the Eucharistic Christ.
    and the Eucharistic one being the Anti-Christ.
    What if it not only bleeds but talks?!
    Rev. 13:15

    And with businesses, for some reason, not doing business with those who have not gotten their mark by bowing down to and acknowledging the Eucharistic Christ?
    The Roman mark only being given to approved persons?
    In a state system, that would be legal.

    after all the whole new agey thing is probably involved.
    And for the good of the planet you need to be in harmony with the good energy that is coming out of this ‘Christ’.

    just my thoughts

  20. I hear you Laura. You’ve got a great mind. Just love reading your thoughts.

  21. The Eucharist is central to Romes beliefs and how they measure true unity and spiritual submission to them.

    I can’t find my big Catholic Bible. But I have one around here that is a coffee table type. Really huge. Anyway, in it is lots of Catholic info.

    Sue, see if you can find this info somewhere.

    What it is, is a writing that explains their view of ‘true unity’.

    And unless I remember wrongly, it plainly stated that the belief in the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist is THE key or criteria for one being in spiritual unity with Rome.

    Seen anything like that in any documents you might have access to?

    This is one reason many Christians were killed. Because they denied the real presence.

    And it makes me kinda upset that one like Rick Warren thinks the ‘reformation’ is over, a mistake, taken too far.

    That NOW we are just ALL Christ followers and can join hands with those who murdered our brethren, and save the world through building houses.

    Just wait, we will be reading of RW attending a very special Eucharist Adoration somewhere.

  22. Laura.

    Shalom.

    Rome teach that Jesus is present physically in the host of the Eucharist. To accept Jesus, is to eat the host. A kind of cannibalism.

    The saved sinners of the Bible, has been saved by accepting the Word of God. People who was saved by Jesus, believed in His message. They did not eat Him.

  23. The Eucharist.

    John 6:35.

    35Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty

    What the RCC has done, is to rewrite this verse. Lets see the RCC version:

    John 6:35.

    35Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Who ever eats me, will never go hungry, and he who drinks me will never be thirsty

  24. This was a major conversion point to me: that eating and drinking was really coming to and believing in. This was a huge jump for me in understanding what John 6 meant.

    Ivarfjeld, I know you were once Catholic. I would like to know your conversion story. I am “fresh off the boat”, and am really interested to hear your witness sometime.

  25. IVARFJELD!!!!

    I KNEW THAT NAME LOOKED FAMILIAR!!!!

    http://ivarfjeld.wordpress.com/2009/07/21/the-papal-throne-to-shift-from-rome-to-jerusalem/

    I’ve got this article link on a few places on my blog and I just put in in a comment yesterday…and look. Here you are!

  26. Hey Sue, Just wanted to check in and say hi and I am praying that your crisis will be over soon. Your doing a great job on this blog! God Bless!

  27. Hey sweet Lunice,

    Thanks for the encouragement. May every grace and blessing be yours.

  28. Sue I second what Lunice said, praying for you and I love your blog…love you!

  29. Thanks for warming my heart today Mama and for your precious prayers!!! x0

  30. How interesting for the Holy Catholic Church which, by virtue of her divinely appointed authority, handed down to St.Peter, the Apostles and their successors, decided the very canon of the Sacred Scriptures you quote to have those same Scriptures quoted back to her as “proof”.

    Keep reading John 6. Why did the defectors, the Jews and His disciples, leave? Why at no point, after Christ explicitly told them that eating His body and drinking His blood was normatively necessary for them to have life in them, why did He not simply explain all this was figurative. Why did they leave?

    They left because they knew it was NOT figurative, and Christ did not call them back for the same reason. Instead He turned to the Apostles, who together with the Apostolic Church confesses, Lord you have the words of eternal life.

    Christ said “This is my body”. When God says, Let there be light” there is light, period. So, when He says, This is my body, This is His body, period. St.Paul also quite clearly says it is not a symbol by pointing out that partaking without contemplation is an actual sin against Christ’s own body and blood.

    Peace and grace.

    • Welcome Xavier. I understand your understanding on John 6. I studied Catholic Apologetics when I was a Catholic. If you read it again. It is clear that when He speaks of eating and drinking what He is talking about is coming to Him and believing in Him.

      When you read Psalm 34, it is not talking about eating God.

      Taste and see that the LORD is good; blessed is the man who takes refuge in him.

      Remember the scripture:
      ‘It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.’” Matthew 4:1-4.

      Notice believing in His Word is referred to eating. Eating does not mean literally eating. The Jews walked away because that is what they thought. They didn’t get it. They took him literally. Christ said:

      The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life. (John 6:63)

      In other words, I am not talking about real flesh here. To drink blood was against the command of God to Moses in the book of Leviticus.

      10 “And if any native Israelite or foreigner living among you eats or drinks blood in any form, I will turn against that person and cut him off from the community of your people, 11 for the life of the body is in its blood. I have given you the blood on the altar to purify you, making you right with the Lord.[e] It is the blood, given in exchange for a life, that makes purification possible. 12 That is why I have said to the people of Israel, ‘You must never eat or drink blood—neither you nor the foreigners living among you.’ (Leviticus 17:10)

      Peter never ate anything unclean:

      “No, Lord,” Peter declared. “I have never eaten anything that our Jewish laws have declared impure and unclean.” (Acts: 10-14)

      There is no way Peter would have drank blood. The Catholic Church says the Last Supper was the first Mass. If it was a Mass, then Jesus would be offering Himself as a sacrifice without blood, which negates it as a sacrifice:

      Hebrews 9:22 (New International Version)

      22In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

      The Lord can not lie. He can not contradict Himself in the scriptures.

      You said:

      Christ said “This is my body”. When God says, Let there be light” there is light, period. So, when He says, This is my body, This is His body, period. St.Paul also quite clearly says it is not a symbol by pointing out that partaking without contemplation is an actual sin against Christ’s own body and blood.

      Christ also said “I am the door”, “I am the branch”…these are NOT taken literally. Something I realized recently, is that the eucharist corrupts. It actually grows mold on it if not eaten. But the scriptures say:

      BECAUSE YOU WILL NOT ABANDON MY SOUL TO HADES, NOR ALLOW YOUR HOLY ONE TO UNDERGO DECAY. (Acts:2:27)

      Since the eucharist undergoes decay it is clearly contradicting scripture. His Body can NOT decay!! He is seated at the right hand of the Father in His carnation. There is one carnation, not many. Christ said he will COME BACK, meaning He is not here in the flesh. He gave us the Holy Spirit when He left this world physically. To believe in the eucharist is to believe in many carnations. There is one risen body of the Lord..now sitting at the right hand of God.

      Thank you for your comments Xavier. I understand you totally. I studied at Franciscan University under Scott Hahn. I really do understand what you believe. The Lord opened my eyes to scriptures and I had no choice but the leave catholicsm. I hope you continue to come back to this blog. You are so welcome here.

      Peace and Grace to you.
      Sue

  31. Dear Sue and Xavier.

    Paul was surely not feeding his listeners with milk….

    1 Corinthians 3
    Brothers, I could not address you as spiritual but as worldly—mere infants in Christ. 2I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready. 3You are still worldly. For since there is jealousy and quarreling among you, are you not worldly? Are you not acting like mere men?

    Neither was Jesus a “bread”. He is the Word, and He walked on Earth for 33 years in flesh.

  32. Dear Sue,
    First of all thanks for your gracious welcome. I’m surprised to learn that you left the Catholic faith after studying under Scott Hahn. But fair enough.

    I am a former lapsed Catholic, who went through a Protestant phase, and the clear exposition of Scott Hahn and others like him is part of what convinced me to come back.

    Anyway,

    “Eating does not mean literally eating. The Jews walked away because that is what they thought. They didn’t get it. They took him literally. ”

    There is no doubt that several passages in Scripture are figurative. But where do you draw the line? Christ could not have been more clear “6:55For my flesh is REAL food and my blood is REAL drink.”

    To put it another way, what could Christ have said that would have convinced you that His flesh was not figuratively food?

    The depth of meaning of the Eucharist is something we can never fully unravel. We eat of the lamb of the sacrifice. It is a mystery of the Faith. The Eucharist is divine communion, where Christ’s life is imparted to us. In it, the soul is one body with her creator.

    1 Cor 10:17 Because there is one loaf, we, who are many, are one body, for we all partake of the one loaf.

    Without the one loaf, Christ Jesus in the Eucharist, there is no unity in the universal Church. We cannot then be the one body of Christ. Thus the bread throughout the world is one and the same.

    Regarding the Jews, and fellow disciples, they are more likely than me or you to know what Christ really meant. And He would have called back at least the disciples who ceased to walk with Him. Instead, He spoke of His miraculous power.

    “The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing.”

    If Christ’s flesh counted for nothing, why not a mere spiritual sacrifice? It is our flesh, not His, that counts for nothing. That is why we receive Christ, so that our bodies inherited of Adam may share in Christ’s resurrection. Christ’s spirit gives us life.

    Regarding Leviticus, it only underlines the point. Why is the blood forbidden? Because the life of the flesh is in the blood. We are not to have the life of animals in our blood, but what a gift to have Christ’s life in us.

    Look forward to hearing more from you, Sue. Peace and Grace.

  33. Dear Xavier.

    You wrote:

    Without the one loaf, Christ Jesus in the Eucharist, there is no unity in the universal Church. We cannot then be the one body of Christ. Thus the bread throughout the world is one and the same.

    Yes, but the “loaf” is not the bread. It is us, You just quoted from Paul, and misquoted him.

    We are not a “loaf”. And we can only be the united body of Jesus, when we are in agreement around the Word of God. When we do that, we part take in the loaf.

    Jesus is the REAL bread from Heaven. But still not a baked bread from your oven.

    Blessings.

  34. Xavier,

    Welcome back. Nice to have you here.

    If Christ gave us His Holy Spirit to live IN US, we ALREADY have Him in us. We already have His Personhood in us. Why would we need more? Why would we need physical flesh?
    Doesn’t the Holy Spirit in us count?

    You may believe by eating Him physically you receive more grace. When does that grace run out? Is it when the host disintigrates in the body? Do you have to replenish it every day or you are without grace? The RCC say you must receive once a year..so does that mean people who don’t barely have grace?

    The Gospel Message is to be born again…the Spirit gives life. Eating flesh does not make you a Christian.

    I worked with teens during their confirmation. They all received the sacraments, all baptized, all went to mass. Many of them believed in reincarnation. Did the sacramental system save them? Did they have life in them because they received the eucharist? Are they Christian because they are practicing Catholics? None of them believed in the saving Gospel and all of them confirmed.

    To believe in the Gospel is to believe in the atonement of Christ. There is no more sacrifice for sin. Christ is our passover. You don’t merit salvation by getting all your Holy Days of Obligation in, never missing Mass, and receiving communion. It’s believing in Him and His finished work on the cross that saves. The Catholic Church says no one can be assured of their salvation. You can’t be assured if it all depends on you and what you DO. You can if it all depends on HIM and what He DID.

    Catholicism is centered on eating flesh for life. Christianity is centered on believing in His finished work of the atonement..that He took our place. The Great Exchange.

    For me Xavier, it was never enough. I had to make the Holy Days of Obligation, not miss mass, keep all the rules of the church with the help of Mary to save me, wear the scapular, go to confession, make reparition and on and on. His blood was never enough. His finished work was not enough. I had to DO DO DO to gain salvation.

    Freedom in Christ is knowing what I can do will never be enough and everything He did is completely accepted by the Father. He sits at the right hand of God as our mediator (one and only) so we can enter heaven. Praise God! This is the Gospel.

    I’m so happy you came back. Dialogue is good and no one understands where you are coming from more than I do. I lived your beliefs to the T.

    Peace, Grace and love of the Messiah be yours,
    Sue

  35. Dear Sue and Xavier.

    I might be one of the so called Cafeteria Catholics, that Sue is talking about. On every Sunday for three years, I came to mas with my wife.

    I took the host. Did not know much about what is was, but anyhow. The priest did not care much about my spiritual life anyway.

    When I started to read the Bible, and the Catholic Catechism, I became aware that taking this host, would changed the Catholic. I had to admit that I had seen the sleeping fellow behind me drunk almost every Saturday, and he also beating his wife on a regular basis.

    When would he change? Would the Eucharist be able to change him?

    Blessings.

  36. Yes, Ivar. That is the point. Is receiving the Eucharist being born again? It did not seem to change the teens who believed in reincarnation.

    Remember Christ’s friend Nicodemus? He was very good at keeping the law and all the rules. But it wasn’t enough. He had to be born again to HAVE LIFE WITHIN HIM. Why didn’t He tell Nicodemus He needed to eat His flesh to have life within him? To be born again and to have life is to believe in the One the Father has sent.

  37. Thanks for this conversation guys. It’s really good!

  38. Good morning Kit!

  39. Dear Ivar, you say I misquote St.Paul and that the loaf he is referring to is not the Eucharist. But after speaking of the bread and wine, and then the verse I quoted, about Christians being one body, he continues:

    1 Cor 10:18 Consider the people of Israel: Do not those who eat the sacrifices participate in the altar?

    Dear Sue, there is such a long history of this, the Jewish Encyclopedia explains it well. Some little known points about this.

    1. The lamb of the sacrifice had to be eaten by the community for the sacrifice to be complete

    2. Only those circumcised and following the revelation of the time could participate, and these were obliged to participate

    http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=99&letter=P

    The parallels to the issue at hand, the necessity of confessing the Faith, being baptized, and not doubting single life and judgment are easy to see. That is Church teaching and I think adresses your question of your friends who believed in reincarnation.

    Apart from Jewish practices, Sacred Scripture contains much foreshadowing. The King priest Melchizedec offered a sacrifice of bread and wine. Malachi spoke of how a sacrifice would be offered in every place from the rising of the sun to the setting.

    Next, you spoke of there being but one sacrifice. This is true, we do not deny it. But as seen in the above verse, that one sacrifice is re-presented and made available multiple times. I think you quoted Hebrews too, but consider this verse.

    Heb 9:23It was necessary, then, for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these sacrifices, but the heavenly things themselves with better SACRIFICES than these.

    How can this be understood? To me, only the Catholic understanding suffices. The eternal and sufficient sacrifice of Christ Jesus is merely offered multiple time, and thus the heavenly things are purified with better sacrifices. Christ Himself said what can literally be translated as “Offer this as my memorial sacrifice”, at the Last Supper.

    This link explains this: http://www.scripturecatholic.com/the_eucharist.html

    Apart from the volume of evidence in its favor, you would also be arguing against history, and claiming that God left the world in darkness for more than 1500 years, because this was the universal belief till then, again reflected in the link above. (Luther himself said something to the effect of wanting to deny it to give a “smack in the face of the popery” but found the evidence too strong in its favour.)

    So, of course the Holy Spirit in us counts, of course being born again, as the Church has always taught, counts, confessing the divine Faith (as reflected in the Nicene Creed, not just in Christ as Lord and Saviour, though of course that is included) being baptized with water and entering the new birth in Christ is most important.

    Dear Sue, I also respectfully disagree with you when you say you HAD to do all those things. I reply that you no more HAD to do those things than children HAVE to love their parents. They go it regularly as they find love and rest there. Spouses do not HAVE to show their love to each other physically, do they?

    The words of the Mass are sublime. It is more than just a scripture reading and a sermon. The Liturgy is steeped in Scripture. Adherents confess their sin, profess their faith, intercede for the world, and purify themselves through prayer before approaching the Altar. How is this an “obligation” in a light sense? No more than loving a parent or a spouse is an obligation.

    I stay in a hostel alone and I do not think speaking to my earthly mother or asking her to pray for me is another thing I HAVE to do. Yet, how much less the one who is Mother of the Prince?

    Confession is joyful. It is most Christian. To admit that one has sinned, which the world refuses to do. Christ’s own authority to forgive sins, given authoritatively to the Apostles(John 20) is deposited in the Keys.

    Your doctrine that we don’t have to participate in Christ’s sacrifice by offering our own selves as a living sacrifice as St.Paul said is, in my opinion, the own doctrine that caused Europe to depart from the Faith.

    Luther said that all man’s attempts to live holy and righteous lives are mortal sins, even a hundred murders and adulteries do not matter so long as you supposedly have faith. Calvin took this to another extent crediting every action purely to God so as to deny by extension, human free will itself. The Rationalists were aghast at these doctrines, citing the “nonsense” of religion which claims that the most wicked of men might be the greatest and best. And then things got out of hand. This is not the Biblical truth.

    Peace and Grace. :)

  40. Dear Xavier.

    Good. I Cor 1:18. But why skip verse 19 and 20?

    Do I mean then that a sacrifice offered to an idol is anything, or that an idol is anything?

    No, but the sacrifices of pagans are offered to demons, not to God, and I do not want you to be participants with demons.

    (end of scripture).

    The Jews ate the Passover Lamb. It was an animal. I ate it during the last Jewish Passover with Jewish friends.

    To eat a human, that is cannibalism. To try to eat God, that is utter non sense.

  41. Dear Xavier,

    Welcome back again and thank you for your comments.

    The church says you will go to hell if you miss mass (without a good reason), eat meat on Friday during Lent, miss a holy day of obligation. This is insane.

    Unless you keep with all the rules you can be damned at the drop of a hat UNLESS you confess to a priest.

    I was an awesome rule keeper. I kept every rule and it did not bring me closer to God. It was all about what I had to do to stay in grace, not what HE did to save me.

    I know I didn’t have to wear scapular ect. But I did HAVE to go to mass and confession to remain”in grace”. I HAD to go to Holy Days of Obligation. We were taught if we did the extras (rosary, chaplet ect) we’d get even more grace, .like increasing your bank account. the only problem is, one sin like missing mass could wipe out your account and send you straight to hell.

    My faith is not based on Luther and Calvin. Both men with faults. My faith is based on the Word of God and my faith in Him alone.

    concerning the eucharist:

    Yet the Most High does not dwell in houses made by hands, as the prophet says, (Acts 7:48)

    Can humans command the Lord God to come off of His throne into a piece of bread to be eaten and travel through the digestive tract? Containing God in a piece of bread does not make sense. If the Incarnation is one body, you can not have that one body in Heaven on the throne and broken in a million pieces throughout the earth. He said He will COME BACK. If the eucharist is true, than He is already here, which contradicts scripture. He gave us the Holy Spirit in the place of His physical presence. He will come again when He rules in His Kingdom.

    Peace to you, Xavier.
    Sue

  42. The peace of Christ be with all of you.

    Dear Ivar,

    You said: “But why skip verse 19 and 20?”
    :D Well, I could have quoted the entire chapter. :)But the meaning remains. St.Paul said we are one body in Christ because there is one bread, the context is the Eucharistic celebration of bread and wine, and as if that were not enough he explains this further by saying the Jewish people participate in the Altar.

    “To eat a human, that is cannibalism. To try to eat God, that is utter non sense.”

    Well, Christ is both God and man, and His word that we must eat of His flesh which is REAL food to share in His one Body is good enough for us, for the Apostles and for those who learnt the Faith at their feet. Do read up on the practice in the early Church. It was unequivocally Catholic.

    Dear Sue,

    Neither God nor His Church damns any one. People send themselves to hell, and live in eternal rebellion against the law of their Creator, with self-love or inordinate love for creatures in place of love for God.

    Based on Sacred Scripture, specifically 1 John, the Church makes a distinction between sin that leads to death(mortal sin) and that that do not(venial sin)

    And yes, missing Eucharistic communion with the whole Church is a grave sin, unless for a right reason. I told you, would a good husband wish not to show love to his wife? Would a good child not return to his parent’s home every night? Similarly we receive our Lord’s love by going to his home at least on the day He rose from the dead.

    You say your faith is based on the Word of God alone not on Luther, you talk about “rules” and you say God does not dwell in human hands and yet I wonder if you do not accept only 39 books as our dear separated evangelical brethren do. Tell me Sue, based on Scripture alone, how could you ever know there were only 27 books in the NT? Did Scripture say so? How would you know that that was Scripture and not a false heretical writing claiming to be Scripture?

    The Church came before the Scripture, the same Mother, the same Bride of Christ against whom you, I say this with love, please forgive me if it offends you, rebel, whom the Word of God declares is “the pillar and ground of the truth” (1 Tim 3), has the power to bind and to loose,(mat 16) which means to make laws such as those relating to abstinence, was the Church which authorititatvely declared, among other things, that 27 books, no more and no less, make up the NT.

    I’m so glad Evangelical Christians believe in Scripture, but you would not know which was and which was not Scripture without the Church.

    Christ’s house, the Church, is not built with merely human hands, it was built by Him upon the Rock. And like the wise man in His parable, no storm will destroy it, the gates of hell will not prevail against His Church. Where in Scripture can any man justify leaving the house the Lord built and building another?(Psa 127)

    God did dwell in some way even in the Jewish temples. Is it not fitting that after the Incarnation and the Resurrection, as Christ said “I am with you forever, even until the end of time” There is one and only one body, or carnation, of the Lord Jesus Christ. That one body is the one bread St.Paul speaks of.

    Let me address some of the other points you brought out. To do that, I must ask you a question. When was the Lamb slain? 2000 years ago? Yes, but also, Rev 13, replies, from the foundations of the world. Christ’s sacrifice is eternal as He is eternal. It transcends time, and saves by faith even those who were temporally His ancestors. All men were saved by Christ.

    If that sacrifice transcends time, then the merits of that sacrifice may be justly presented to the Father multiple times as Scripture says heaven has better “sacrifices”. Thus Christ’s one body because it transcends temporal reality can be in multiple places at once.

    Further, you ask where the authority for this originates? From sinful man? No, but from Sacred Scripture, and more specifically as with all the Gospels from the mouth of the Redeemer. Christ’s words have transformative power. Thus, when He speaks, even if external appearance and perceptible physical reality remains the same to humans, there is an objective and supernatural change in the species of the sacrifice. “This is my body” He says, and in some way we do not fully understand any more than we fully do the doctrine of the Trinity, the Incarnation, the Resurrection, the Atonement and so on, the bread becomes His body. This power, He conferred on His Apostles to offer as His memorial sacrifice.

    Do read the link I gave. Hymns such as Gloria and “Holy Holy Holy” have great Scriptural precedence, especially in the book of Revelation. Thanks again for your welcome.

    Be blessed.

  43. Welcome back Xavier,

    Would you agree that if there was no priesthood, then there is no eucharist? Raymond Brown, Catholic Biblical Scholar (required reading for Catholic Seminarians) declares there was NO priesthood at the time of the apostles.

    Excerpt from following article written by Richard Bennett, former Catholic Priest:

    In the early 1970s we who gloried in being priests were shocked to read the word of one of our best Roman Catholic Scripture scholars, Raymond E. Brown:

    When we move from the Old Testament to the New Testament, it is striking that while there are pagan priests and Jewish priests on the scene, no individual Christian is ever specifically identified as a priest. The Epistle to the Hebrews speaks of the high priesthood of Jesus by comparing his death and entry into heaven with the actions of the Jewish high priest who went into the Holy of Holies in the Tabernacle once a year with a offering for himself and for the sins of his people (Hebrews 9:6-7).

    But it is noteworthy that the author of Hebrews does not associate the priesthood of Jesus with the Eucharist or the Last Supper; neither does he suggest that other Christians are priests in the likeness of Jesus. In fact, the once-for-all atmosphere that surrounds the priesthood of Jesus in Hebrews 10:12-14, has been offered as an explanation of why there are no Christian priests in the New Testament period.1

    Later in the same chapter Brown argues for a priesthood like that of the Levitical class in the Old Testament. He makes his case for the development of such a doctrine by means of tradition. Even those of us who knew very little of the Bible knew that the Pharisees counted tradition superior to the clear Word of God. Brown did more to demolish the conviction that we were indeed priests than to ease our troubled minds.

    Now I see that what Brown stated in the section quoted is biblically and absolutely true. Other than the royal priesthood, which applies to all true believers in Christ, there is no office of priesthood in the New Testament. Rather, as Hebrews states so clearly of the Old Testament priests, “And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death: But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood. Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them” (Hebrews 7:23-25) “Unchangeable priesthood” means just that in the Greek: aparabatos means “untransferable”. The reason it cannot be transferred to men is that its essence is Christ’s own, ..who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens” (verse 26).

    http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/priestho.htm

  44. Dear Xavier and Sue.

    Do not only listen to what they say, but look towards what they do. I will also add: Take a look at how they look.

    Read Exodus, and how to dress up a son of Aaron as a priest. Its like the priesthood of Rome came out of the same cupboard.

    This is a Jewish priesthood. I guess that’s why the RCC priest wear kipas?

    And, all people above the age of six, who can read the New Testament will understand: This priesthood has expired.

    The RCC priesthood is pathetic. And their actions in regards to sexual abuse of children has also made them bluntly a bunch of criminals.

  45. Dear Sue.

    Shalom.

    I very good and correct observation. Because the Priesthood (s) of Judaism, is interconnected to the Temple in Jerusalem. There is no Temple.

    That’s how Rome came into the picture. We are told the Vatican is now the Temple of God on Earth. And inside sits a man the Catholics have made ” The Holy Father”

    The problem is that the Temple is not suppose to be in Rome. That is why the RCC is looking towards Jerusalem. When will we be able to shift the Papal throne?

    They falsehood is exposed, to all who read the Scriptures, and obey the messages that is revealed by the Holy Spirit.

  46. Dear Ivar,

    Shalom to you.

    I couldn’t agree with you more! That’s why Rome calls itself “the Holy City” and says the Church has replaced the Chosen People, the Jews. When the Lord chooses, He chooses and doesn’t change His mind. Replacement theology is false and even many reformers fell prey to this falsehood.

  47. “Let no man deceive you by any means for that day shall not come except there come a falling away first and that man of sin be revealed , the son of perdition. Who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped so that he as God SITS in the temple of God showing himself that he is God.” 2 Thess 2:3-4.

    The title “Lord God the Pope” – these words appeared in the Canon Law of Rome. “To believe that our Lord God the Pope has not the power to decree as he is decreed, is to be deemed heretical.” (The Gloss extravagances of Pope John XXII Cum. Inter, tit XIV Ad Callem Sexti Decretalium, Paris, 1685)

    Father A. Pereira acknowledged: “It is quite certain that Popes have never disapproved or rejected this title “Lord God the Pope” for the passage in the gloss referred to appears in the edition of the Canon Law published in Rome by Gregory XIII.”

    Pope Nicholas I declared that “the appellation of God had been confirmed by Constantine on the Pope, who being God, cannot be judged by man.” (Labb IX Dist.: 96 Can 7 Satis Evidentur Decret Gratian Primer Para)

    “I acknowledge no civil superior, I am the subject of no prince, and I claim more than this, I claim to be the supreme judge on earth and director of the consciences of men, I am the last supreme judge of what is right and wrong.” (Sermon in the Pro Cathedral, Kensington, Tablet Oct 9, 1864)

    Prompta Bibliothea Canonica Juridicia Moralis Theologica appearing in the Catholic Encyclopedia Volume VI, pp. 25-29, “The Pope is of so great dignity, and so exalted, that he is not a mere man, but as it were, God and the Vicar of God. The Pope is, as it were, God on earth, chief king of kings, having plentitude of power.”

    “We hold upon this earth the place of God almighty.” — Pope Leo XIII, Encyclical Letter, June 20, 1894.

    “The Pope is not only the representative of Jesus Christ, but he is Jesus Christ, Himself, hidden under the veil of human flesh.” — Catholic National, July 1895.

    “The Pope and God are the same, so he has all power in Heaven and earth.” — Pope Pius V, quoted in Barclay, Chapter XXVII, p. 218, “Cities Petrus Bertanous.”

    “Seek where you will, through heaven and earth, and you will find but one created being who can forgive the sinner…That extraordinary being is the priest the Catholic priest.” — Michael Muller, The Catholic Priest, page 78.

    “To pardon a single sin requires all the omnipotence of God…The Jews justly said: ‘Who can forgive sins but God alone?’ But what only GOD can do by His omnipotence, the PRIEST can ALSO do by saying ‘Ego te absolvo a peccatis tuis’ [I absolve you from your sin].” — Alphonsus de Liguori, Dignity and Duties of the Priest, pages 34-35.

  48. Dear Sue.

    1 Corinthians 4:15
    Even though you have ten thousand guardians in Christ, you do not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel.

    This verse is often used by RCC Apologetics to defend the Pope as a Father.

    Against the truth lies in the fine print. Paul talks about guardians to children. Someone needs to raise them in faith. Paul never said: I have have become THE Holy Father to you.

  49. Ivar,

    Verse 14 says:
    14I am not writing this to shame you, but to warn you, as my dear children

    I understand that he is speaking to them as a father would his children, babies in the faith.

    According to the RCC, Paul wouldn’t be referring to himself as Holy Father, but Peter would. So why would they use that verse? It would make sense for Peter, but not Paul. They may use this verse to defend the priesthood and in calling themselves “father”..but not for defending the Papacy.
    Anyway, there was no priesthood among believers, but a royal priesthood for all believers since Jesus was the final Priest to offer sacrifice (Himself).

  50. Dear Sue.

    You know the RCC from the inside, and I have had a lot of arguments with quite capable Papal soldiers.

    The logic is: When one Apostles is called a Father, and all of them has the right to do so. Peter was suppose to have been the chief of the Fathers. And He was Holy. So therefore: The Holy Father.

    Clever, very clever. Human wisdom, in a bid to twist the scriptures to fit a Papal doctrine.

  51. Hi Ivar,

    I understand Ivar.

    Thanks for posting!

  52. Hello again,

    As for the accusation that priests are criminals, well I think that is slightly uncharitable. I can show you Evangelicals like Ted Haggard, the 99% of priests who are not child molesters, secular studies establishing the extent is similar to that in Evangelical denominations and secular schools, Christ and St.Paul’s recommendations of celibacy over the sacrament of matrimony and the teaching of the world of the Resurrection in which “they neither marry or are given in marriage”.
    Raymond Brown is a liberal who I believe also denies the Resurrection. :) His views are of no consequence. And for every priest, scholar or theologian you can show who breaks from the Catholic Church, I can show you a thousand who hold the divine and Catholic Faith in its entirety.
    So let’s come to the actual question of the priesthood. I will use a corollary of your own statement, Sue. If Christ commanded the Eucharistic offering, and you have not replied to that at all nor to direct questions I put to you, then there is the priesthood.

    Secondly, Christ said just as the Father had sent Him, He sends the Apostles, giving them the power to remit and retain sins.(Jn 20) Now the Father consecrecated the Son(Jn 10) and sent Him as a priest into the world. Thus the Apostles were priests and act as the person of Christ.

    Thirdly, the NT refers strictly to presbyteroi or elders from which our word for priests comes as well as to episcopoi which takes on the meaning bishop. That is why there are Bishops and priests in the Catholic Church and no such thing in modern Evangelical denominations.

    To quote from the Vatican Web page,

    “- Such mission of “maintaining the deposit” (1Tim 6:20; 2 Tim 1:14) must be exercised by the successors of the Apostles who have been charged through the imposition of hands ( 1 Tim 4:14; 2 Tim 1:6; 1 Tim 5:22). Those who are responsible bear the title of “vigilants” (in Greek “episcopi”, from which the word “bishop” comes) or “elder” (in Greek “presbiteri”). Also the letters of Saint James (5:14) and of Saint Peter (1 Pet 5:1-14) testify to the existence of “presbyters” as heads of the communities.

    The Acts of the Apostles speak twice about the rite of the imposition of hands (Acts 6:6 and 13:3; cf also 14:23), testifying to the presence of “presbyters” at Ephesus in the year 58 (At 20:17). They were also called “episcopi” (Acts 20:28). ”

    http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cclergy/documents/rc_con_cclergy_doc_24111998_pnewt_en.html

    Do read the document. It manifests sacramental ordination and Apostolic succession by the laying on off hands has existed from the earliest times to the present.

    Fifthly, that passage from St.James also speaks of extreme unction or annointing of the sick. Do read it. Call in the elders or presbters of the Church, said the writer.

    Sixthly, the argument from 1 Peter 2 is terribly interesting! The fact that we are all priests proves that there are no priests, is it? Really? St.Peter was in fact quoting from passages of the Old Testament. And this one is another killer. For if there was a royal or kingly priesthood in the OT but did not preclude the existence of a special, ministerial priesthood, then the same is true in the NT.

    Ex 19:6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation

    http://www.ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/PRIEST3.HTM

    Ah, now to the anti-Catholic quotes. :D That aside, it is mildly disappointing to see you engaging in uncritical peddling of information obtained from random websites. At least examine both sides of the issue.

    http://sacrificium-laudis.blogspot.com/2008/09/our-lord-god-popenot-part-1.html

    One of the Official titles of the Pope: “Servant of the Servants of God”. That’s who the Holy Father is, who like all priests, following the example of the Lord, doesn’t hesitate to wash the feet of others, at Maundy Thursday.

    Read the Catechism or the Catholic Encyclopedia if you really want to know what the Church teaches about the Pope, and then compare it to the Scripture. :)

    Now to some other issues. Regarding the movement to Rome, it was because St.Peter, Prince of the Apostles was Bishop of Rome, and died there that one of the Five Sees of the Church is there. Christ wasn’t kidding when He said He would build the Church on St.Peter! His remains are there, it is quite literal.

    The other four Sees are now Orthodox, namely Antioch, Alexandria, Syria and Jerusalem. The Church is Catholic or Universal in its saving mission. It embraces all peoples The appellation “Roman” is largely to distinguish between Anglicans who called themselves “English Catholics” as well as some others.

    St.Luke says in the last chapter of Acts, “That’s how we came to be in Rome”. Rome also is more practical than a Jerusalem that was to be destroyed as per the Lord’s prophecy. St.Peter and St.Paul preached together in Rome. And by the Lord’s goodness, with the blood of the saints, through the providential conversion of Emperors, Rome was won for the Faith. Rome, like all nations, is part of Christ’s saving mission. Like all nations, she has bishops. Like five other places, there is a holy see. And she has primacy because St.Peter did.

    I think you’ve agreed yourselves that priests can be called holy or father. St.Peter clearly was the leader. See in Scripture. St.Peter is mentioned 155 times, more than all the other Apostles put together, he is mentioned first almost always, called “Cephas” (or Rock) respecfully by St.Paul, he excommunicated the heretic St.Magus, inflicted the first punishment on Ananias, spoke authoritatively and infallibly at the Council of Jersualem (Acts 15) in a teaching binding on the whole Church based on what seemed good to “the Holy Spirit and to us”. By the way, when’s the last time Evangelical Churches convened councils to settle doctrinal disputes and then authorized infallible proclamations binding on the whole Church? :)

    Be blessed.
    Peace and Grace.

  53. Xavier,

    I didn’t delete anything. Just logged on. Sometimes it doesn’t post automatically because I need to approve of it (in other words it doesn’t post until I allow it). Sometimes it automatically posts. It’s quirky.

  54. “We hold upon this earth the place of God almighty.” — Pope Leo XIII, Encyclical Letter, June 20, 1894.

    “The Pope is not only the representative of Jesus Christ, but he is Jesus Christ, Himself, hidden under the veil of human flesh.” — Catholic National, July 1895.

    “The Pope and God are the same, so he has all power in Heaven and earth.” — Pope Pius V, quoted in Barclay, Chapter XXVII, p. 218, “Cities Petrus Bertanous.”

    “We confess that the Pope has power of changing Scripture and of adding to it, and taking from it, according to his will.” Roman Catholic Confessions for Protestants Oath, Article XI, (Confessio Romano-Catholica in Hungaria Evangelicis publice praescripta te proposita, editi a Streitwolf), as recorded in Congressional Record of the U.S.A., House Bill 1523, Contested election case of Eugene C. Bonniwell, against Thos. S. Butler, Feb. 15, 1913.

    “We the Archbishops and Bishops of Ireland, prostrate at the feet of your Holiness, humbly offer you our warmest congratulations on the occasion of the Golden Jubilee of your ordination to the priesthood… our thoughts go back to that great event fifty years ago by which your Holiness was taken from amongst men and appointed for men in the things that pertain to God, was made a minister of Christ and a dispenser of His mysteries, received power over the real and mystical body of our Saviour and became a mediator between God and man – another Christ.” Address to Pope Pius Xll in 1949:-

    Pope Innocent III (1198-1216) wrote: “We may according to the fullness of our power, dispose of the law and dispense above the law. Those whom the Pope of Rome doth separate, it is not a man that separates them but God. For the Pope holdeth place on earth, not simply of a man but of the true God.” (1 Book of Gregory 9 Decret. c.3)

    The Lateran Council addressing Pope Julius II in an oration delivered by Marcellus said: “Take care that we lose not that salvation, that life and breath which thou hast given us, for thou art our shepherd, thou art our physician, thou art our governor, thou art our husbandman, thou art finally another God on earth.” (Council Edition. Colm. Agrip. 1618)

    Pope Nicholas said of himself: “I am in all and above all, so that God Himself and I, the vicar of God, hath both one consistory, and I am able to do almost all that God can do…wherefore, if those things that I do be said not to be done of man, but of God, what do you make of me but God? Again, if prelates of the Church be called of Constantine for gods, I then being above all prelates, seem by this reason to be above all gods. Wherefore, no marvel, if it be in my power to dispense with all things, yea with the precepts of Christ.” (Decret. par. Distinct 96 ch. 7 edit. Lugo 1661)

    The RC New York catechism states: “The Pope takes the place of Jesus Christ on earth…by divine right the Pope has supreme and full power in faith, in morals over each and every pastor and his flock. He is the true vicar, the head of the entire church, the father and teacher of all Christians. He is the infallible ruler, the founder of dogmas, the author of and the judge of councils; the universal ruler of truth, the arbiter of the world, the supreme judge of heaven and earth, the judge of all, being judged by no one, God himself on earth.”

    The title “Lord God the Pope” – these words appeared in the Canon Law of Rome. “To believe that our Lord God the Pope has not the power to decree as he is decreed, is to be deemed heretical.” (The Gloss extravagances of Pope John XXII Cum. Inter, tit XIV Ad Callem Sexti Decretalium, Paris, 1685)

    “I acknowledge no civil superior, I am the subject of no prince, and I claim more than this, I claim to be the supreme judge on earth and director of the consciences of men, I am the last supreme judge of what is right and wrong.” (Sermon in the Pro Cathedral, Kensington, Tablet Oct 9, 1864)

    Prompta Bibliothea Canonica Juridicia Moralis Theologica appearing in the Catholic Encyclopedia Volume VI, pp. 25-29, “The Pope is of so great dignity, and so exalted, that he is not a mere man, but as it were, God and the Vicar of God. The Pope is, as it were, God on earth, chief king of kings, having plentitude of power.”

    “Seek where you will, through heaven and earth, and you will find but one created being who can forgive the sinner…That extraordinary being is the priest the Catholic priest.” — Michael Muller, The Catholic Priest, page 78.

    “To pardon a single sin requires all the omnipotence of God…The Jews justly said: ‘Who can forgive sins but God alone?’ But what only GOD can do by His omnipotence, the PRIEST can ALSO do by saying ‘Ego te absolvo a peccatis tuis’ [I absolve you from your sin].” — Alphonsus de Liguori, Dignity and Duties of the Priest, pages 34-35.

    Jeremiah 17:5

    This is what the LORD says: “Cursed is the one who trusts in man, who depends on flesh for his strength and whose heart turns away from the LORD.

    Matthew 23:9

    And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

    2 Thessalonians 2:15

    Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

    NOTICE THE PAST TENSE HERE…HAVE BEEN

    Revelation 22:18

    I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book.

    Galations 2

    7But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;

    8(For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles:)

  55. 2 Thesalonians 2

    3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

    4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

    5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

    Revelation 17

    1And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:

    2With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.

    3So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

    4And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:

    5And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

    6And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

    7And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.

    8The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

    9And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

    10And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

    11And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

    12And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

    13These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

    14These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

    15And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.

    16And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.

    17For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

    18And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

  56. Hi Xavier
    Quick question, why are we to take Jesus’s statement about bread and wine being his literal body and blood yet take Matthew 23:9 figuratively “And call no man father upon the earth for one is your Father, which is in Heaven”. (Notice there is only one Father with a Capitol F)

  57. Tradition:

    1. Presbyters first called priests by Lucian 2nd c.
    2. Sacerdotal mass instituted by Cyprian 3rd c.
    3. Prayers for the dead A.D. 300
    4. Making the sign of the cross A.D. 300
    5. Wax candles A.D. 320
    6. Veneration of angels, dead saints, and images A.D. 375
    7. Mass became a daily ritual A.D. 394
    8. Beginning of exaltation of Mary, term “Mother of God”
    first applied to her by Council of Ephesus A.D. 431
    9. Priests began to wear special clothing A.D. 500
    10. Extreme Unction (Rite of Healing) A.D. 526
    11. The doctrine of Purgatory by Gregory I A.D. 593
    12. Latin used in worship A.D. 600
    13. Prayers offered to Mary, dead saints and angels A.D. 600
    14. First man to be proclaimed Pope (Boniface III) A.D. 610
    15. Kissing the Pope’s feet A.D. 709
    16. Temporal power of Popes, conferred by Pepon, King of the Franks A.D. 750
    17. Veneration of cross, images, relics authorized A.D. 786
    18. Holy water, mixed with pinch of salt, chrism, and blessed by a priest A.D. 850
    19. Veneration of St. Joseph A.D. 890
    20. College of Cardinals begun A.D. 927
    21. Baptism of bells instituted by Pope John XIII A.D. 965
    22. Canonization of dead saints by Pope John XV A.D. 995
    23. Fasting on Fridays and Lent A.D. 998
    24. The Mass developed gradually as a sacrifice, attendance made obligatory 11th c.
    25. Celibacy of priests declared A.D. 1079
    26. Rosary adopted (pagan) by Peter the Hermit A.D. 1090
    27. The Inquisition instituted by Council of Verona A.D. 1184
    28. Sale of indulgences A.D. 1190
    29. Seven Sacraments, defined by Peter Lombard 12th c.
    30. Transubstantiation, defined by Innocent III A.D. 1215
    31. Auricular confession (Rite of reconciliation) of sins to a priest instead of God, instituted by Innocent III A.D. 1215
    32. Adoration of the wafer (called the Host), decreed by Pope Honorius III A.D. 1220
    33. Scapular invented by Simon Stock of England A.D. 1251
    34. The cup forbidden to the laity at communion by Council of Constance A.D. 1414
    35. Purgatory proclaimed as a dogma by the Council of Florence in A.D. 1439
    36. Tradition declared of equal authority with the Bible by the Council of Trent A.D. 1545
    37. Apocryphal books are added to the Bible by the Council of Trent A.D. 1546
    38. Creed of Pope Pius IV imposed as the official creed in place of the original Apostolic Creed A.D. 1560
    39. Immaculate Conception of Mary (not virgin birth) proclaimed by Pope Pius IX A.D. 1854
    40. Syllabus of Errors proclaimed by Pope Pius IX and ratified by the Vatican Council; condemned freedom of religion, conscience, speech, press and scientific discoveries which are disapproved by the Roman Church; asserted the Pope’s temporal authority over all civil rulers A.D. 1864
    41. Infallibility of the Pope in matters of faith and morals proclaimed by the Vatican Council A.D. 1870
    42. Assumption of Mary proclaimed by Pius XII A.D. 1950
    43. Mary proclaimed the “Mother of the Church” by Pope Paul VI A.D. 1965

    Scripture on tradition:

    Matthew 15:3
    But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?

    Matthew 15:6
    And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.

    Mark 7:8
    For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.

    Mark 7:9
    And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

    Mark 7:13
    Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

    Colossians 2:8
    Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

    1 Peter 1:18
    Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

    On the authority of scripture:

    2nd Timothy 3

    15And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

    16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

    17That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

    1 Corinthians 2:9-13: “But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: …Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.” (KJV)

    John 17

    12While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

    13And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.

    14I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

    15I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

    16They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

    17Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

    Paul refers to the Hebrew Scriptures as the “word of God,” not of men:

    1 Thessalonians 2:13: “For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.”(KJV)

    John 17:16-18 (King James Version)

    16They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

    17Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

    Scripture itself states that all of the Scriptures are “theopneustos” in the original Greek — “breathed out by God:”

    2 Timothy 3:16: “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.” (KJV).

    A second popular verse which supports the concept of inspiration is found in 2 Peter.

    2 Peter 1

    19We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:

    20Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

    21For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

    Here’s some more verses that have to do with the scriptures and how Jesus saw them…i.e. they were to be fulfilled, men erred because they did not know the scripture, they were written to testify of Jesus, they give us hope…

    Psalm 40:7
    Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book it is written of me,

    Acts 7:42
    Then God turned, and gave them up to worship the host of heaven; as it is written in the book of the prophets, O ye house of Israel, have ye offered to me slain beasts and sacrifices by the space of forty years in the wilderness?

    Hebrews 10:7
    Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

    Revelation 17

    18For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

    19And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

    Romans 15:5

    3For even Christ pleased not himself; but, as it is written, The reproaches of them that reproached thee fell on me.

    4For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.

    5Now the God of patience and consolation grant you to be likeminded one toward another according to Christ Jesus:

    Daniel 9:2
    in the first year of his reign, I, Daniel, understood from the Scriptures, according to the word of the LORD given to Jeremiah the prophet, that the desolation of Jerusalem would last seventy years.

    Matthew 21:42
    Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures: ” ‘The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone ; the Lord has done this, and it is marvelous in our eyes’ ?

    Matthew 22:29
    Jesus replied, “You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God.

    Matthew 26:54
    But how then would the Scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen in this way?”

    Mark 12:10
    Haven’t you read this scripture: ” ‘The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone ;

    Mark 12:24
    Jesus replied, “Are you not in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God?

    Mark 14:49
    Every day I was with you, teaching in the temple courts, and you did not arrest me. But the Scriptures must be fulfilled.”

    Luke 4:21
    and he began by saying to them, “Today this scripture is fulfilled in your hearing.”

    Luke 24:27
    And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself.

    Luke 24:32
    They asked each other, “Were not our hearts burning within us while he talked with us on the road and opened the Scriptures to us?”

    Matthew 22:29
    Jesus replied, “You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God.

    Matthew 26:54
    But how then would the Scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen in this way?”

    Matthew 5

    17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

    18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

    Mark 12:10
    Haven’t you read this scripture: ” ‘The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone ;

    Mark 12:24
    Jesus replied, “Are you not in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God?

    Mark 14:49
    Every day I was with you, teaching in the temple courts, and you did not arrest me. But the Scriptures must be fulfilled.”

    Luke 4:21
    and he began by saying to them, “Today this scripture is fulfilled in your hearing.”

    Luke 24:27
    And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself.

    Luke 24:32
    They asked each other, “Were not our hearts burning within us while he talked with us on the road and opened the Scriptures to us?”

    Luke 24:45
    Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures.

    John 2:22
    After he was raised from the dead, his disciples recalled what he had said. Then they believed the Scripture and the words that Jesus had spoken.

    John 5:39
    You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me,

    John 7:38
    Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, streams of living water will flow from within him.”

    John 7:42
    Still others asked, “How can the Christ come from Galilee? Does not the Scripture say that the Christ will come from David’s family and from Bethlehem, the town where David lived?”

    John 10:35
    If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came—and the Scripture cannot be broken—

    John 13:18
    [ Jesus Predicts His Betrayal ] “I am not referring to all of you; I know those I have chosen. But this is to fulfill the scripture: ‘He who shares my bread has lifted up his heel against me.’

    John 17:12
    While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.

    John 19:24
    “Let’s not tear it,” they said to one another. “Let’s decide by lot who will get it.” This happened that the scripture might be fulfilled which said, “They divided my garments among them and cast lots for my clothing.” So this is what the soldiers did.

    John 19:28
    [ The Death of Jesus ] Later, knowing that all was now completed, and so that the Scripture would be fulfilled, Jesus said, “I am thirsty.”

    John 19:36
    These things happened so that the scripture would be fulfilled: “Not one of his bones will be broken,”

    John 19:37
    and, as another scripture says, “They will look on the one they have pierced.”

    John 20:9
    (They still did not understand from Scripture that Jesus had to rise from the dead.)

    Acts 1:16
    and said, “Brothers, the Scripture had to be fulfilled which the Holy Spirit spoke long ago through the mouth of David concerning Judas, who served as guide for those who arrested Jesus—

    Acts 8:32
    The eunuch was reading this passage of Scripture: “He was led like a sheep to the slaughter, and as a lamb before the shearer is silent, so he did not open his mouth.

    Isaiah 8

    20To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

    Here’s a link to a scholarly type guy about the scripture, how it was written etc. and then below are what the Bible says about itself. (I am adding scripture to this comment as I find it, so the list will probably keep growing). I believe that men had alot of time to mess with it, but then there’s that thing called Providence. It’s one of those things where you either believe God made sure what He wanted us to know we have when it comes to spiritual things, or you don’t. Personally, I think if I can’t believe what the Bible says about itself, I might as well just throw it all out and find something else. I do believe what the Bible says, so I have to measure all other teachings and tradition upon what I know the Bible says. You can’t really refute anything in any religion or belief system if you don’t have an authoritative source of truth. You can’t measure what anyone says to see whether they are speaking the truth. But even the Bereans…who double checked Paul searched the scriptures for truth. If Paul could be double checked against scripture, shouldn’t the Pope be held to the same standards?

    Acts 17

    Acts 17:10-12 (King James Version)

    10And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews.

    11These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

    12Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few.

    Psalm 138

    2I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.

    ANyway, Here’s Heiser’s discussion:

    http://michaelsheiser.com/TheNakedBible/naked-bibles-inspiration-discussion/

    And this is standard defending the authority of scripture stuff.

    http://kittykit.wordpress.com/2009/09/29/the-inspiration-inerrency-and-authority-of-the-bible/

    http://kittykit.wordpress.com/2009/09/29/manuscript-evidence/

    2nd Timothy 3

    15And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

    16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

    17That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

    1 Corinthians 2:9-13: “But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: …Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.” (KJV)

    John 17

    12While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

    13And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.

    14I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

    15I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

    16They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

    17Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

    Paul refers to the Hebrew Scriptures as the “word of God,” not of men:

    1 Thessalonians 2:13: “For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.”(KJV)

    John 17:16-18 (King James Version)

    16They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

    17Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

    Scripture itself states that all of the Scriptures are “theopneustos” in the original Greek — “breathed out by God:”

    2 Timothy 3:16: “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.” (KJV).

    A second popular verse which supports the concept of inspiration is found in 2 Peter.

    2 Peter 1

    19We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:

    20Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

    21For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

    Here’s some more verses that have to do with the scriptures and how Jesus saw them…i.e. they were to be fulfilled, men erred because they did not know the scripture, they were written to testify of Jesus, they give us hope…

    Psalm 40:7
    Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book it is written of me,

    Acts 7:42
    Then God turned, and gave them up to worship the host of heaven; as it is written in the book of the prophets, O ye house of Israel, have ye offered to me slain beasts and sacrifices by the space of forty years in the wilderness?

    Hebrews 10:7
    Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

    Revelation 17

    18For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

    19And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

    Romans 15:5

    3For even Christ pleased not himself; but, as it is written, The reproaches of them that reproached thee fell on me.

    4For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.

    5Now the God of patience and consolation grant you to be likeminded one toward another according to Christ Jesus:

    Daniel 9:2
    in the first year of his reign, I, Daniel, understood from the Scriptures, according to the word of the LORD given to Jeremiah the prophet, that the desolation of Jerusalem would last seventy years.

    Matthew 21:42
    Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures: ” ‘The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone ; the Lord has done this, and it is marvelous in our eyes’ ?

    Matthew 22:29
    Jesus replied, “You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God.

    Matthew 26:54
    But how then would the Scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen in this way?”

    Mark 12:10
    Haven’t you read this scripture: ” ‘The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone ;

    Mark 12:24
    Jesus replied, “Are you not in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God?

    Mark 14:49
    Every day I was with you, teaching in the temple courts, and you did not arrest me. But the Scriptures must be fulfilled.”

    Luke 4:21
    and he began by saying to them, “Today this scripture is fulfilled in your hearing.”

    Luke 24:27
    And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself.

    Luke 24:32
    They asked each other, “Were not our hearts burning within us while he talked with us on the road and opened the Scriptures to us?”

    Matthew 22:29
    Jesus replied, “You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God.

    Matthew 26:54
    But how then would the Scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen in this way?”

    Matthew 5

    17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

    18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

    Mark 12:10
    Haven’t you read this scripture: ” ‘The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone ;

    Mark 12:24
    Jesus replied, “Are you not in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God?

    Mark 14:49
    Every day I was with you, teaching in the temple courts, and you did not arrest me. But the Scriptures must be fulfilled.”

    Luke 4:21
    and he began by saying to them, “Today this scripture is fulfilled in your hearing.”

    Luke 24:27
    And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself.

    Luke 24:32
    They asked each other, “Were not our hearts burning within us while he talked with us on the road and opened the Scriptures to us?”

    Luke 24:45
    Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures.

    John 2:22
    After he was raised from the dead, his disciples recalled what he had said. Then they believed the Scripture and the words that Jesus had spoken.

    John 5:39
    You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me,

    John 7:38
    Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, streams of living water will flow from within him.”

    John 7:42
    Still others asked, “How can the Christ come from Galilee? Does not the Scripture say that the Christ will come from David’s family and from Bethlehem, the town where David lived?”

    John 10:35
    If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came—and the Scripture cannot be broken—

    John 13:18
    [ Jesus Predicts His Betrayal ] “I am not referring to all of you; I know those I have chosen. But this is to fulfill the scripture: ‘He who shares my bread has lifted up his heel against me.’

    John 17:12
    While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.

    John 19:24
    “Let’s not tear it,” they said to one another. “Let’s decide by lot who will get it.” This happened that the scripture might be fulfilled which said, “They divided my garments among them and cast lots for my clothing.” So this is what the soldiers did.

    John 19:28
    [ The Death of Jesus ] Later, knowing that all was now completed, and so that the Scripture would be fulfilled, Jesus said, “I am thirsty.”

    John 19:36
    These things happened so that the scripture would be fulfilled: “Not one of his bones will be broken,”

    John 19:37
    and, as another scripture says, “They will look on the one they have pierced.”

    John 20:9
    (They still did not understand from Scripture that Jesus had to rise from the dead.)

    Acts 1:16
    and said, “Brothers, the Scripture had to be fulfilled which the Holy Spirit spoke long ago through the mouth of David concerning Judas, who served as guide for those who arrested Jesus—

    Acts 8:32
    The eunuch was reading this passage of Scripture: “He was led like a sheep to the slaughter, and as a lamb before the shearer is silent, so he did not open his mouth.

    Isaiah 8

    20To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

  58. On Tradition

    Matthew 15:3
    But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?

    Matthew 15:6
    And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.

    Mark 7:8
    For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.

    Mark 7:9
    And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

    Mark 7:13
    Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

    Colossians 2:8
    Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

    1 Peter 1:18
    Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

  59. Dear Kitty,

    1. Regarding the quotes, do read the “sacrificum” link I gave. Catholics do not believe the Pope is God. Some of the quotes are misquotes, some are out of context. Some do not say what you think they say.

    But like I said, we do believe that the Chair of Peter holds “the keys to the kingdom of heaven” and that he has the power “to bind on heaven and on earth” (Mat 16) and that the bishops in communion with him have the power “to remit and retain sins” (John 20) Because that is totally Biblical.

    Like I said, the Pope washes the feet of others. His office, not his person, is supernaturally protected against the gates of hell. If you believe in the canon of Scripture, if you hold the doctrine of the Trinity, you’re more indebted to the the Popes than you can imagine.

    2. Regarding human tradition and Apostolic Tradition, notice in all the verses you command, Christ is condemning the tradition of humans or of the Pharisees, not of His Apostles which they received from Him.

    Thus St.Paul commends Christians for adhering to Apostolic Tradition (1 Cor. 11:2), commands them to keep it (2 Thess. 2:15) and condemns those who do not (2 Thess. 3:6).

    Oral Apostolic preaching was the very word of God (1 Thess 2:13) and is to be handed down to succesive generations in the Church (2 Tim. 2:2).

    Let me ask you all this question. How will you decide the canon of Scripture? From Scripture alone itself? No!

    Some historical usage of this Tradition, that even Evangelicals and historians would admit

    1) Used in determining the canon of Scripture
    2) Tells us who wrote books like St.Matthew or even St.Mark (which do not themselves claim to come from the Apostle St.Matthew or St.Peter’s disciple St.Mark)
    3) Used in safeguarding true interpretation of Scripture in the early Church (against groups claiming to be Christian like Judaizers, Manicheans, Arians Gnostics, Monatists and several others)

    Next regarding “Father”, to Mrs Bucket and kitty, Jesus was making His point by using hyperbole. Do you cut off your hand or eye every time you sin by it? The point there was to acknowledge the seriousness of sin, as here it is to acknowledge the fatherhood of God. Both are hyperbole. Otherwise, the Apostles failed to understand the Lord correctly, even in inspired Scripture, as many have quoted.

    As for the quotation from Revelation, I will give you a few reasons why it does not refer to the holy Catholic Church.

    1) The woman is a city(Rev 17:18) The Church is not a city, it has bishops everywhere, though the Chair of Peter is in Rome.
    2) She persecuted Apostles. Apostles existed only in the first century. Therefore, not Christian Rome, but again only pagan Rome or Jerusalem
    3) The passage implies that the city was a hub of commerce, which is why merchants weeped for her. This does not fit modern or Christian Rome but does fit pagan Rome.
    4) If you want to claim that the Evangelical Christians whom the Church leaders wrongly killed are the “blood of the saints”, you have to contradict yourself, for very few were killed in Rome itself.
    5) Rome, which killed Christ, being converted and subdued to Christendom makes perfect sense. God is not mocked. Those who profess to overcome Him will be overcome by the Lamb and His Bride.

    The Reformers invented this doctrine out of necessity, not out of detailed Scriptural study, for they knew and feared that if they did not the suspicion will grow that if the Church is not the whore, then she is the our holy Mother, the Bride of Christ.

    Peace and grace. :)

    • Xavier, I look to scripture. Not to tradition. Have you not noticed the “traditions” added to the church over the centuries? None of which are biblical.

      And, no. The quotes are not out of context. They say what they say.

      You look at the violence and the hate and the sex sins throughout the centuries and then tell me you believe your church or ANY church, including protestant and any other church that claims the name of Christ is from God. I don’t care what men do or the doctrines they teach. I care what the Bible says. If those men, regardless of their religious denomination speak contrary to the Word, then I reject their teaching. Period.

      Sorry Xavier. I can’t do that.

      As far as deciding what is cannon…that’s something that you can do your own research on. I’m not going to debate that with you.

  60. The Reformers invented this doctrine out of necessity, not out of detailed Scriptural study, for they knew and feared that if they did not the suspicion will grow that if the Church is not the whore, then she is the our holy Mother, the Bride of Christ.

    ….The Bride that murdered people at the stake?! The church used civil authority to get their deeds done. That’s how she kept her hands “clean”…they are still using civil authority by gaining concordats even until this day.

    You can’t ‘force’ people to have faith by threatening murder. I am aware that some reformers allowed some to be burnt as well which is equally vile.

    These are some of the clinchers for me:

    Why is the RCC so heavily involved with the United Nations and supports policies like the draconion Rights of the Child treaty? The UN has luciferian beginnings and their roots are with the theosophical society/luciferians.

    Why does the Vatican want the Copenhagen Treaty signed which as Al Gore said, will lead us into world government?

    Why does the Catholic church affirm that Buddhists and Hindus can reach divine illumination with “condfidence and love”?

    Why did Pope JP2 pray together with Which Doctors, Spiritists, Hindus, Buddhists, Christians and other religions claiming their prayer was bringing an energy of ‘world peace’?
    (this was in 1986 and again in 2002)

    Why did Pope JP2 and Pope Benedict 16 both call for a “new world order:?

    Why is the Church for a Palastinian state and against the Jews building on the West Bank?

    This was another shocker. The Catholic Catechism says that Mary is the All-Holy One (in capital letters) All-Holy is an attribute to God alone, so this is really messed up in my opinion!! Catholic Catechism:

    Pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death: By asking Mary to pray for us, we acknowledge ourselves to be poor sinners and we address ourselves to the “Mother of Mercy,” the All-Holy One. We give ourselves over to her now, in the Today of our lives. And our trust broadens further, already at the present moment, to surrender “the hour of our death” wholly to her care. May she be there as she was at her son’s death on the cross. May she welcome us as our mother at the hour of our passing38 to lead us to her son, Jesus, in paradise.

  61. Vatican 2

    This loyal submission of the will and intellect must be given, in a special way, to the authentic teaching authority of the Roman Pontiff, even when he does not speak ex cathedra in such wise, indeed, that his supreme teaching authority be acknowledged with respect, and that one sincerely adhere to the decisions made by him, conformably with his manifest mind and intention, which is made known principally either by the character of the documents in question, or by the frequency with which a certain doctrine is proposed, or by the manner in which the doctrine is formulated.2

    From the encyclical Nostra Aetate:
    2. From ancient times down to the present, there is found among various peoples a certain perception of that hidden power which hovers over the course of things and over the events of human history; at times some indeed have come to the recognition of a Supreme Being, or even of a Father. This perception and recognition penetrates their lives with a profound religious sense.

    Religions, however, that are bound up with an advanced culture have struggled to answer the same questions by means of more refined concepts and a more developed language. Thus in Hinduism, men contemplate the divine mystery and express it through an inexhaustible abundance of myths and through searching philosophical inquiry. They seek freedom from the anguish of our human condition either through ascetical practices or profound meditation or a flight to God with love and trust. Again, Buddhism, in its various forms, realizes the radical insufficiency of this changeable world; it teaches a way by which men, in a devout and confident spirit, may be able either to acquire the state of perfect liberation, or attain, by their own efforts or through higher help, supreme illumination. Likewise, other religions found everywhere try to counter the restlessness of the human heart, each in its own manner, by proposing “ways,” comprising teachings, rules of life, and sacred rites. The Catholic Church rejects nothing that is true and holy in these religions. She regards with sincere reverence those ways of conduct and of life, those precepts and teachings which, though differing in many aspects from the ones she holds and sets forth, nonetheless often reflect a ray of that Truth which enlightens all men. Indeed, she proclaims, and ever must proclaim Christ “the way, the truth, and the life” (John 14:6), in whom men may find the fullness of religious life, in whom God has reconciled all things to Himself.(4)

    The Church, therefore, exhorts her sons, that through dialogue and collaboration with the followers of other religions, carried out with prudence and love and in witness to the Christian faith and life, they recognize, preserve and promote the good things, spiritual and moral, as well as the socio-cultural values found among these men.

    3. The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all- powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth,(5) who has spoken to men; they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even His inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself, submitted to God. Though they do not acknowledge Jesus as God, they revere Him as a prophet. They also honor Mary, His virgin Mother; at times they even call on her with devotion. In addition, they await the day of judgment when God will render their deserts to all those who have been raised up from the dead. Finally, they value the moral life and worship God especially through prayer, almsgiving and fasting.

    Since in the course of centuries not a few quarrels and hostilities have arisen between Christians and Moslems, this sacred synod urges all to forget the past and to work sincerely for mutual understanding and to preserve as well as to promote together for the benefit of all mankind social justice and moral welfare, as well as peace and freedom.

    My comment:
    None of that flies with me at all. There is nothing holy and good about Buddhism and Hinduism. He says that you CAN achieve divine illumination with CONFIDENCE AND LOVE in these false religions!! Christ is the only WAY.

  62. Here’s a link to a scholarly type guy about the scripture, how it was written etc. and then below are what the Bible says about itself. I believe that men had alot of time to mess with it, but then there’s that thing called Providence. It’s one of those things where you either believe God made sure what He wanted us to know we have when it comes to spiritual things, or you don’t. Personally, I think if I can’t believe what the Bible says about itself, I might as well just throw it all out and find something else. I do believe what the Bible says, so I have to measure all other teachings and tradition upon what I know the Bible says. You can’t really refute anything in any religion or belief system if you don’t have an authoritative source of truth. You can’t measure what anyone says to see whether they are speaking the truth. But even the Bereans…who double checked Paul searched the scriptures for truth. If Paul could be double checked against scripture.

    Acts 17

    10And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews.

    11These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

    12Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few.

    Psalm 138

    2I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.

    Anyway, Here’s Heiser’s discussion:

    http://michaelsheiser.com/TheNakedBible/naked-bibles-inspiration-discussion/

    And this is standard defending the authority of scripture stuff.

    http://kittykit.wordpress.com/2009/09/29/the-inspiration-inerrency-and-authority-of-the-bible/

    http://kittykit.wordpress.com/2009/09/29/manuscript-evidence/

    2nd Timothy 3

    15And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

    16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

    17That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

    1 Corinthians 2:9-13: “But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: …Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.” (KJV)

    John 17

    12While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

    13And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.

    14I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

    15I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

    16They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

    17Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

    Paul refers to the Hebrew Scriptures as the “word of God,” not of men:

    1 Thessalonians 2:13: “For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.”(KJV)

    John 17:16-18 (King James Version)

    16They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

    17Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

    Scripture itself states that all of the Scriptures are “theopneustos” in the original Greek — “breathed out by God:”

    2 Timothy 3:16: “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.” (KJV).

    A second popular verse which supports the concept of inspiration is found in 2 Peter.

    2 Peter 1

    19We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:

    20Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

    21For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

    Here’s some more verses that have to do with the scriptures and how Jesus saw them…i.e. they were to be fulfilled, men erred because they did not know the scripture, they were written to testify of Jesus, they give us hope…

    Psalm 40:7
    Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book it is written of me,

    Acts 7:42
    Then God turned, and gave them up to worship the host of heaven; as it is written in the book of the prophets, O ye house of Israel, have ye offered to me slain beasts and sacrifices by the space of forty years in the wilderness?

    Hebrews 10:7
    Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

    Revelation 17

    18For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

    19And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

    Romans 15:5

    3For even Christ pleased not himself; but, as it is written, The reproaches of them that reproached thee fell on me.

    4For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.

    5Now the God of patience and consolation grant you to be likeminded one toward another according to Christ Jesus:

    Daniel 9:2
    in the first year of his reign, I, Daniel, understood from the Scriptures, according to the word of the LORD given to Jeremiah the prophet, that the desolation of Jerusalem would last seventy years.

    Matthew 21:42
    Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures: ” ‘The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone ; the Lord has done this, and it is marvelous in our eyes’ ?

    Matthew 22:29
    Jesus replied, “You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God.

    Matthew 26:54
    But how then would the Scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen in this way?”

    Mark 12:10
    Haven’t you read this scripture: ” ‘The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone ;

    Mark 12:24
    Jesus replied, “Are you not in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God?

    Mark 14:49
    Every day I was with you, teaching in the temple courts, and you did not arrest me. But the Scriptures must be fulfilled.”

    Luke 4:21
    and he began by saying to them, “Today this scripture is fulfilled in your hearing.”

    Luke 24:27
    And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself.

    Luke 24:32
    They asked each other, “Were not our hearts burning within us while he talked with us on the road and opened the Scriptures to us?”

    Matthew 22:29
    Jesus replied, “You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God.

    Matthew 26:54
    But how then would the Scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen in this way?”

    Matthew 5

    17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

    18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

    Mark 12:10
    Haven’t you read this scripture: ” ‘The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone ;

    Mark 12:24
    Jesus replied, “Are you not in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God?

    Mark 14:49
    Every day I was with you, teaching in the temple courts, and you did not arrest me. But the Scriptures must be fulfilled.”

    Luke 4:21
    and he began by saying to them, “Today this scripture is fulfilled in your hearing.”

    Luke 24:27
    And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself.

    Luke 24:32
    They asked each other, “Were not our hearts burning within us while he talked with us on the road and opened the Scriptures to us?”

    Luke 24:45
    Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures.

    John 2:22
    After he was raised from the dead, his disciples recalled what he had said. Then they believed the Scripture and the words that Jesus had spoken.

    John 5:39
    You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me,

    John 7:38
    Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, streams of living water will flow from within him.”

    John 7:42
    Still others asked, “How can the Christ come from Galilee? Does not the Scripture say that the Christ will come from David’s family and from Bethlehem, the town where David lived?”

    John 10:35
    If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came—and the Scripture cannot be broken—

    John 13:18
    [ Jesus Predicts His Betrayal ] “I am not referring to all of you; I know those I have chosen. But this is to fulfill the scripture: ‘He who shares my bread has lifted up his heel against me.’

    John 17:12
    While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.

    John 19:24
    “Let’s not tear it,” they said to one another. “Let’s decide by lot who will get it.” This happened that the scripture might be fulfilled which said, “They divided my garments among them and cast lots for my clothing.” So this is what the soldiers did.

    John 19:28
    [ The Death of Jesus ] Later, knowing that all was now completed, and so that the Scripture would be fulfilled, Jesus said, “I am thirsty.”

    John 19:36
    These things happened so that the scripture would be fulfilled: “Not one of his bones will be broken,”

    John 19:37
    and, as another scripture says, “They will look on the one they have pierced.”

    John 20:9
    (They still did not understand from Scripture that Jesus had to rise from the dead.)

    Acts 1:16
    and said, “Brothers, the Scripture had to be fulfilled which the Holy Spirit spoke long ago through the mouth of David concerning Judas, who served as guide for those who arrested Jesus—

    Acts 8:32
    The eunuch was reading this passage of Scripture: “He was led like a sheep to the slaughter, and as a lamb before the shearer is silent, so he did not open his mouth.

    Isaiah 8

    20To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

  63. Ohhh. I didn’t see that part in your comment Xavier. That woman is ALSO that great city that rules over the kings of the earth. The Vatican and it’s head and the religion of it’s head would match that description.

    Here’s a link to a scholarly type guy about the scripture, how it was written etc. and then below are what the Bible says about itself. (I am adding scripture to this comment as I find it, so the list will probably keep growing). I believe that men had alot of time to mess with it, but then there’s that thing called Providence. It’s one of those things where you either believe God made sure what He wanted us to know we have when it comes to spiritual things, or you don’t. Personally, I think if I can’t believe what the Bible says about itself, I might as well just throw it all out and find something else. I do believe what the Bible says, so I have to measure all other teachings and tradition upon what I know the Bible says. You can’t really refute anything in any religion or belief system if you don’t have an authoritative source of truth. You can’t measure what anyone says to see whether they are speaking the truth. But even the Bereans…who double checked Paul searched the scriptures for truth. If Paul could be double checked against scripture, shouldn’t the Pope be held to the same standards?

    Acts 17

    Acts 17:10-12 (King James Version)

    10And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews.

    11These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

    12Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few.

    Psalm 138

    2I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.

    ANyway, Here’s Heiser’s discussion:

    http://michaelsheiser.com/TheNakedBible/naked-bibles-inspiration-discussion/

    And this is standard defending the authority of scripture stuff.

    http://kittykit.wordpress.com/2009/09/29/the-inspiration-inerrency-and-authority-of-the-bible/

    http://kittykit.wordpress.com/2009/09/29/manuscript-evidence/

    2nd Timothy 3

    15And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

    16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

    17That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

    1 Corinthians 2:9-13: “But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: …Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.” (KJV)

    John 17

    12While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

    13And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.

    14I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

    15I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

    16They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

    17Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

    Paul refers to the Hebrew Scriptures as the “word of God,” not of men:

    1 Thessalonians 2:13: “For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.”(KJV)

    John 17:16-18 (King James Version)

    16They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

    17Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

    Scripture itself states that all of the Scriptures are “theopneustos” in the original Greek — “breathed out by God:”

    2 Timothy 3:16: “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.” (KJV).

    A second popular verse which supports the concept of inspiration is found in 2 Peter.

    2 Peter 1

    19We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:

    20Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

    21For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

    Here’s some more verses that have to do with the scriptures and how Jesus saw them…i.e. they were to be fulfilled, men erred because they did not know the scripture, they were written to testify of Jesus, they give us hope…

    Psalm 40:7
    Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book it is written of me,

    Acts 7:42
    Then God turned, and gave them up to worship the host of heaven; as it is written in the book of the prophets, O ye house of Israel, have ye offered to me slain beasts and sacrifices by the space of forty years in the wilderness?

    Hebrews 10:7
    Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

    Revelation 17

    18For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

    19And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

    Romans 15:5

    3For even Christ pleased not himself; but, as it is written, The reproaches of them that reproached thee fell on me.

    4For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.

    5Now the God of patience and consolation grant you to be likeminded one toward another according to Christ Jesus:

    Daniel 9:2
    in the first year of his reign, I, Daniel, understood from the Scriptures, according to the word of the LORD given to Jeremiah the prophet, that the desolation of Jerusalem would last seventy years.

    Matthew 21:42
    Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures: ” ‘The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone ; the Lord has done this, and it is marvelous in our eyes’ ?

    Matthew 22:29
    Jesus replied, “You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God.

    Matthew 26:54
    But how then would the Scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen in this way?”

    Mark 12:10
    Haven’t you read this scripture: ” ‘The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone ;

    Mark 12:24
    Jesus replied, “Are you not in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God?

    Mark 14:49
    Every day I was with you, teaching in the temple courts, and you did not arrest me. But the Scriptures must be fulfilled.”

    Luke 4:21
    and he began by saying to them, “Today this scripture is fulfilled in your hearing.”

    Luke 24:27
    And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself.

    Luke 24:32
    They asked each other, “Were not our hearts burning within us while he talked with us on the road and opened the Scriptures to us?”

    Matthew 22:29
    Jesus replied, “You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God.

    Matthew 26:54
    But how then would the Scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen in this way?”

    Matthew 5

    17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

    18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

    Mark 12:10
    Haven’t you read this scripture: ” ‘The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone ;

    Mark 12:24
    Jesus replied, “Are you not in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God?

    Mark 14:49
    Every day I was with you, teaching in the temple courts, and you did not arrest me. But the Scriptures must be fulfilled.”

    Luke 4:21
    and he began by saying to them, “Today this scripture is fulfilled in your hearing.”

    Luke 24:27
    And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself.

    Luke 24:32
    They asked each other, “Were not our hearts burning within us while he talked with us on the road and opened the Scriptures to us?”

    Luke 24:45
    Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures.

    John 2:22
    After he was raised from the dead, his disciples recalled what he had said. Then they believed the Scripture and the words that Jesus had spoken.

    John 5:39
    You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me,

    John 7:38
    Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, streams of living water will flow from within him.”

    John 7:42
    Still others asked, “How can the Christ come from Galilee? Does not the Scripture say that the Christ will come from David’s family and from Bethlehem, the town where David lived?”

    John 10:35
    If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came—and the Scripture cannot be broken—

    John 13:18
    [ Jesus Predicts His Betrayal ] “I am not referring to all of you; I know those I have chosen. But this is to fulfill the scripture: ‘He who shares my bread has lifted up his heel against me.’

    John 17:12
    While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.

    John 19:24
    “Let’s not tear it,” they said to one another. “Let’s decide by lot who will get it.” This happened that the scripture might be fulfilled which said, “They divided my garments among them and cast lots for my clothing.” So this is what the soldiers did.

    John 19:28
    [ The Death of Jesus ] Later, knowing that all was now completed, and so that the Scripture would be fulfilled, Jesus said, “I am thirsty.”

    John 19:36
    These things happened so that the scripture would be fulfilled: “Not one of his bones will be broken,”

    John 19:37
    and, as another scripture says, “They will look on the one they have pierced.”

    John 20:9
    (They still did not understand from Scripture that Jesus had to rise from the dead.)

    Acts 1:16
    and said, “Brothers, the Scripture had to be fulfilled which the Holy Spirit spoke long ago through the mouth of David concerning Judas, who served as guide for those who arrested Jesus—

    Acts 8:32
    The eunuch was reading this passage of Scripture: “He was led like a sheep to the slaughter, and as a lamb before the shearer is silent, so he did not open his mouth.

    Isaiah 8

    20To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

  64. Dear Kittykit,

    Everytime I read such arguments, I’m like God bless those Evangelicals! :)

    You have no idea what you’re saying. Your argument goes something like “Scripture proves it is Scripture because it claims to be Scripture”

    What do you think of heretical works, that they all come with a disclaimer explicitly stating themselves to be heretical? NO, ABSOLUTELY NOT. They claim some sort of inspiration or authority themselves as if they were Scripture.

    This is why you cannot rely on Scripture itself to tell you what is Scripture, or how many books are inspired, but you must rely on external authority, which historically was Apostolic Tradition and the Catholic Church.

    This is my challenge to you, go look up any Bible commentary, however Evangelical it is, it will use the word Tradition in describing how we know for instance that Matthew wrote his gospel. The same is true of maintaining orthodoxy and determining the canon.

    Look up the sects that started in the early Church, even Evangelicals would condemn their doctrines. Manicheans, Arians, Gnostics, Montanists and several others.

    I will clarify with a secular example. Christendom is like a nation. The Bible is like the constitution. Tradition is like the non-constitutional sayings of the founding fathers passed down orally. And the Church is like the Supreme Court. You cannot claim to be a citizen and exalt your opinion above the supreme court, even though both are guided by the constitution.

    Catholic Christianity is complete, whereas Evangelical Christianity resembles an anarchy where private judgment is the final authority. One person’s interpretation of the constitution is not exalted over the consensus of the court and the jury. And unlike a secular nation, the Church has her Lord’s promises that she cannot be conquered.

    I will reply to the other claims later.
    Peace and grace. :)

  65. Yes Xaview, that’s my argument. Exactly. You believe scripture for what it says, or you believe what man tells you to think about scripture.

    Like I said earlier, I don’t care about men and their creeds and doctrines and billion page documents that add to the scripture. I care about scripture.

  66. Oh, and Xavier, no need to reply. You have already said I have no Idea what I am saying…so why even waste your breath. I’ve heard it all. That’s what happens when you have a family full of ex-catholics.

    God has chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise. If knowing the scripture and being able to tell when something doesn’t add up makes me not know what I am talking about….then so be it. :) The fact is, if you know the real thing, you can tell when something is a sorry counterfeit.

    What an honor to be a fool for Christ.

  67. Kitty,

    So how do you know, for example, that the Shepherd of Hermas or the Acts of Peter and Paul or the Gospel of Thomas does not belong in the Bible?

    Where did Scripture tell you that there are 27 books in the NT, not one more or not one less?

    • Xavier it’s pretty obvious that the Apostles and the early church made decisions regarding the Canon, there is a big difference between those folks taking into account what books were included traditionally by the early church and the Roman Catholic view that their “Holy” tradition is equal in authority to the Bible.
      2 Timothy 3:16 where we see that “All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.” Catholics reject this verse and put the traditions of men above the sovereignty of God and scripture. We cannot debate with you, you serve another version of God, period. It’s certainly not the God of scripture.

  68. Xavier, at this point I am shaking the dust from my feet. You’ve been warned. When you stand in front of Jesus Christ on judgement day, what will you tell him? Will you be a sheep or a goat? Will you tell him you trusted in your eucharist, your church, your rosary, your good works, or will you tell Him that He is the only reason you would ever get to spend eternity with Him. Will you tell Him that His finished work on the cross saved you or you will you tell Him that you saved yourself by following religion.

    With that…I shake the dust off and move on.

    Nice talking with you Xavier.

  69. @Kitty,

    Sorry if I worded it harshly. I meant to say that your statement cannot be sustained. I’m asking you how you know a book X is inspired and you’re saying basically, it’s inspired because it CLAIMS to be so. Am I right or wrong in saying that?

    That is no standard. Because many books we both agree to be false CLAIM to be inspired

    @MamaHarper,

    No, it wasn’t the Apostles who decided it. It was their Catholic successors. The Council (Ecumenical Councils are yet another holy Tradition, by the way, from the time of the Apostles, see Acts 15) of Carthage, a very Catholic Council, in 397 AD first stipulated which books belonged in the Bible.

    No one denies that Scripture is an authority. But Scripture is not the ONLY authority. Nor does it claim to be so. It rather tells us to look to oral Apostolic Tradition that is handed down (1 Cor. 11:2, 2 Thess. 2:15, 2 Thess. 3:6, 1 Thess 2:13, 2 Tim. 2:2) and to the Church (Mat 16:18, Mat 18:17,1 Tim 3:15)

    I’m sorry if I offended anyone. That was not intended. If you want to stop, we shall.

  70. No offense taken.

  71. Hey Xavier,

    No one here is offended. You are welcome at this blog anytime!

    Grace to you,
    Sue

  72. Good to know that. :)

    Peace and Grace

  73. Good to be around Sue. Very interesting comments around!

  74. Hi Benleem!

    Nice to have you here! :)

    Sue

  75. Your clock stopped at 5:52.
    I don’t read lonnnnng comments, I just whiz thru them. It’s ok to quote Scripture, but really, about half of the New Testament was quoted here.
    May you have a blessed new year.
    Steve

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